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Shandra
Posts:2
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| 10/26/2009 11:35 AM |
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I've read through all your posts. I've learned a lot about the differences between men and women through God, life, books and this forum.
readinmom: I just read your post, so it's fresh in my mind. What came to me immediately is the serenity prayer - "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference."
A song I heard this morning, I've heard many times before, but today it was extra special to me and maybe God wants someone else to hear it: "Be strong in the Lord, never give up hope. You're going to do great things, I already know. God has his hand on you."
Though I am not married, I have my struggles, too. Those that mock the very emotions you all deal with in your marriages. When I focus on God, the way he has blessed me and how the next blessing is around the corner, everything feels good. I feel blessed and know that I am. I have high expectations for God in my life. These are the things that help me. You may think to yourself, 'she's not married, she has no idea,' albeit right, but I know a God that can do ANYTHING. There is no limit to where His love can go.
I hope this helps,
In Faith
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Shandra
Posts:2
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| 10/26/2009 11:35 AM |
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I've read through all your posts. I've learned a lot about the differences between men and women through God, life, books and this forum.
readinmom: I just read your post, so it's fresh in my mind. What came to me immediately is the serenity prayer - "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference."
A song I heard this morning, I've heard many times before, but today it was extra special to me and maybe God wants someone else to hear it: "Be strong in the Lord, never give up hope. You're going to do great things, I already know. God has his hand on you."
Though I am not married, I have my struggles, too. Those that mock the very emotions you all deal with in your marriages. When I focus on God, the way he has blessed me and how the next blessing is around the corner, everything feels good. I feel blessed and know that I am. I have high expectations for God in my life. These are the things that help me. You may think to yourself, 'she's not married, she has no idea,' albeit right, but I know a God that can do ANYTHING. There is no limit to where His love can go.
I hope this helps,
In Faith
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JoeMS
Posts:38
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| 10/26/2009 9:10 PM |
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heather: He imagines "what it would be like to have sex with her" including my 18 year-old daughter ...and the attractive woman he sees at Home Depot.
Yikes, this is not healthy! Shaunti makes a great point in her radio interview on the book with Dr. Dobson. I recall she says men are going to notice, but then they have to take that thought captive in obedience to Christ. cf 2 Cor.10:5
This is not easy to do, especially if the man is still a sex addict or possibly if he has untreated ADHD (I know about that). I've improved greatly although I'm certainly not perfect. A guy gets his squirt of adrenaline and other brain chemicals from the stimulating image. (Dr Judith Reisman is a good source on the biochemical issues but this article presents the basics http://www.contentwatch.com/learn_center/article/175)
These sinful, selfish thoughts and attitudes spill over into one's relationship with women. You start looking at a person's parts and how they might please me, instead of seeing the person as a beloved daughter of God. I fear your daughters will sense that he does not have pure love and concern for them. It could affect how they relate to men later.
LadywithaB: You say that all men are visual, and that even the "decent" guys fantasize when they see a pretty woman....
I feel hopeless and helpless about it. It's like "that's how it is and there's nothing you or he can do about it...
Guys will NOTICE. Then they must make a decision to be a faithful son of God.
I forget if it was Shaunti or Dr. Dobson that made the point that according to polls sex is not the #1 thing men want from his wife. It was either supportiveness or encouragement. This is an area where the girl at Home Depot or in a porn flick cannot compete with a good wife regardless of age!
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lilm
Posts:4
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| 12/15/2009 5:02 AM |
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I am so glad that I am not the only woman who gets hurt if a man is looking at other women. I have a question, what is the difference between being a pervert and a guy who is just struggling lustful thoughts? I also want to hear more opions. How in the world can you trust a man? To me they are not worth the trouble.
Lee you do have to honor your wife when she is not around. Lee is the exact type of guy that scare me. If Lee was your husband, would you appreciate it or be disgusted? |
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lilm
Posts:4
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| 12/15/2009 5:10 AM |
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| You do have to honor your wife, by not looking at other, when she is not around. |
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makel
Posts:4
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| 04/06/2010 12:22 AM |
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Hi all. I too have struggled with this information. Sadly, my self esteem has taken a dive. It seems an impossible ask to be instructed to respect and show admiration for someone who in a sense spits in your face. I can respect my husband, but at this point admiration...
I have really thought about this issue over the past year and have realised it is not my role to fix my husband regarding this area. This is between him and God. I do not own his sexuality, God does. Therefore, I do not get on his case anymore if he sees attractive women I just silently suffer. However, it does get less painful over time I promise. The trick is to expect it will happen every time you are out (or watching tv etc). This removes the element of surprise which can be upsetting while replacing it with another possible more pleasant surprise of occasionally having an outing where it doesn't happen. Also, know that the very same thing is probably happening to the girl he is noticing. Sometimes I picture him holding her hand while he checks out other women. You see the women he is noticing are not 'the One'. I have come to realize there is no 'the One' that will stop this behaviour occuring in men - whoever they are with will never be enough because it is a form of greed, sexual greed. I had to ask myself, what is the worst thing that could happen? I concluded that it would be the women he is noticing entice him away from our marriage and he would leave me. Then I thought of what my life would be like and realized it wouldn't kill me but other opportunities for happiness would most likely unfold.
The only real problem I now face is that I do not feel close to my husband anymore. I now really struggle in being intimate because as we all know women like to feel secure and attractive to enjoy that instead of betrayed and undesirable. This is problematic because in order for men to feel loved they need sexual intimacy. So I just do it anyway to fulfil that part of marriage - another box ticked I guess. Of course I can play marriage pretty well now and he is none the wiser, in fact he tells me he is inredibly fulfilled in our marriage and feels it is a safe haven for him and a place of great joy. I just smile, because on my side of the fence my life is nothing like that now.
You know what is really sad, everything he has ever done to provide for and build our relationship and family means very little to me - all I really wanted was faithfulness and love. The rest is just smoke sreens and mirrors.
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Healingfromhurt
Posts:15
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| 04/07/2010 1:44 AM |
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makel,
Thank you for posting. I could have written your post word for word. |
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makel
Posts:4
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| 04/07/2010 6:45 PM |
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| You are welcome Healingfromhurt. I wish there was a quick fix for this problem but there isn't. I forgot to mention that one of my difficulties is the desire of men to see their wives have better self esteem, that they would feel good about who they are. This seems an impossible ask when our self esteem takes a battering because our husbands have to discipline themselves not to stray! I just don't think it is reasonable to put pressure on women to be confident when they are living in a losing battle. I think what I am going to do is really focus on the things in my life that give me joy (hobbies, firends, maybe take up some painting or something) so I can recover some enjoyment in who I am rather than feeling constantly insecure about comparisons etc. I think the trick is to develop your self confidence regardless of your husband. I think this is a healthy move. I had no idea how much I relied on my husband to validate my worth. This seems to be the flip side of the coin (we are wired to want security etc) so I guess my responsibility is to not place my husband as though he were a hero or something. That is a very unrealistic belief. He is a man plain and simple. He was not put on earth to meet my needs. Only God can do that. I have to try to guard my heart from being bitter because my husbands needs get met and mine do not. I think this new plan to pour myself into joyful activities is the answer for myself - I pray you will find your answer too. |
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heather
Posts:7
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| 04/08/2010 9:33 PM |
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| I've realized lately that I DO have self-esteem. I have many attributes, I am attractive, I have value. The doubt settles in when the person who says he loves you doesn't see ALL of what you are. He compares you unfairly to other women. And now, you probably do it too. A 40 year-old woman will never have an appearance that compares to a that of a teenager. But when you compare yourself FAIRLY, you WILL measure up. When you compare your WHOLE self (not just your appearance) to other women your age, you'll see that you have much to offer. |
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newmom
Posts:1
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| 04/09/2010 3:03 PM |
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Unfortunately for me, I should not have read/listened to this audiobook. At least not after just delivering our newest addition a few weeks ago. Between my already insecure appearance from going from slender to post-pregnancy, not to mention the media of Ti9er Woods, Je$se James and others, my husband's history of hidden porn dvds and all too frequent "self pleasing" habits...
yea, this was literally the final blow to any confidence and assurance I had in that maybe things were finally making a turn for the better (no porn evidence, seems to have decreased in personal 'self indulging behaviors' etc.). Wow this was very hard and shocking. I certainly would make sure any women who suggest this book, ensure they aren't doing so to any women who have recently had physical/bodily changes they aren't in control of- particularly pregnancy.
Heather I'm glad for you that you have really measured yourself up accurately and truthfully. I wish I could say the same for myself and confidently feel so. Hopefully soon.  |
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David H.
Posts:2
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| 04/13/2010 7:32 PM |
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Dear readers. Hello. My name is Dave. I am Heather’s guy. Everything that she told you I did is true. My behaviors were exactly as she described. I can also tell you that the hurt that she has felt as a result of my behaviors was indeed excruciating and exactly as she has described.
I have struggled with the urge to look at women since a teenager. What she didn’t tell you is that I have also been addicted to porn for nearly 35 years, most of my teenage and adult life. She didn’t tell you that. For me it was my addiction to the porn that produced the kind of thoughts that it was okay to not only look at other women but to also objectify them.
I sought the aid of three different therapists, one of whom was an ordained minister who specialized in sexual issues. All of them told me that my porn use and my girl watching was normal. Okay. So it is normal. But is it right? Deep inside my soul I knew better. Losing the love of your life will do that to you.
I finally found the help I needed in an on-line program that is tailor made for porn addicts like myself. It has completely transformed my life. I know this forum isn’t about people with porn addictions but there is a message I want to share with you. Part of this on-line program deals specifically with objectifying and looking at women. It is this part of the program that I found helpful in overcoming not only my addiction to porn but also my desire to look at other women.
I want you to know that men are indeed “wired” with the desire to notice attractiveness in a woman. I also want you to know that they don’t have to actively look. They can choose not to. And when a pretty woman crosses their path, they will notice her attractiveness but they don’t have to lust. They can acknowledge the beauty and move on. I know this because I’ve gone from actively seeking out and objectifying women to now sometimes not even noticing them approaching me.
I can now say that I don’t have the desire to go back to my old ways. What it took for me to get to this point was 1) a willingness or motive to change, 2) a program that was structured for just such a problem, and 3) a lot of emotionally challenging work and practice on my part. Without all three, there can be no significant changes.
I want you to know that I don’t think most men enjoy having the desire to look at other women. I know I didn’t and still do not. Even though I enjoyed the small sexual pop I sometimes got from it, I hated being a slave to it. I knew in my soul that it was wrong and hated the desire to look in a sexual way. I hated myself for having the desire. I didn’t know I had an alternative. I do now.
What men don’t realize is that they themselves can be hurt by it too. It leads to objectifying women and that isn’t healthy for the women that they deal with in life and it isn’t healthy for themselves either. There is so much more to women than a collection of body parts. Objectifying them makes a man see woman not for who they are but only for what they can do for him.
If you are hurt from your man’s wandering eyes, then I suggest that you start by telling him that you are hurt by it. Please understand that it is in every healthy man’s DNA to recognize an attractive woman. It is what he does with the thoughts when he recognizes someone is attractive. And, it is one thing to simply notice her attractiveness. He has crossed the line when he actively looks for attractive women because there is usually a reason for it. Expect him to provide resistance and justification for his actions. Most men have made a habit of this through years of practice and don’t even know that it hurts you. Hopefully, you have the kind of relationship where you can talk about the things that are hurtful in your relationship and maybe even work on them together. I hope this helps.
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David H.
Posts:2
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| 04/14/2010 11:37 AM |
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| What I meant to say in the last paragraph is that what matters is what a man does with his thoughts after an attractive woman crosses is path. |
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B'go
Posts:1
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| 04/16/2010 8:58 AM |
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I just love your answer. Attention trumps physical appearance. sweeet! |
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wifeandmom
Posts:1
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| 04/22/2010 11:29 AM |
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(I appolagize in advance that this turned out so long, I started typing a few thoughts and well, it just short of filled a lot of space)
I can certainlly relate to being a new mom and ALL the changes that come with it (physical, emitional,spiritualetc..)  It can get frusterating at times dealing with a post pregnant body, esp in my case where my daughter is 7 months old and I finally started feeling like getting into shape ( i wasn't in good shape physically before she was born) then find out that we're expecting another little blessing. It adds fuel to the fire to find out that your husband has been looking at what the world deems as "perfect women". We don't have internet or cable/satelliet at home, and because of the filters on my husbands work computer, I know porn sites are not accessable to him; however, lingere sites are. Now imagine getting into an arguement one night and your husbanding walking out the door with the family cell phone but leaving his work blackberry at home. You go to make a call on his work phone, accidentally hit the wrong button and find an email from the lingere site with a picture of a "perfect women" recentally viewed. Then a few nights later hear a comment like "why don't you wear the cute outfits I bought you anymore?" OOOUCH! UMM hello I just had your baby and nothing fits a stretched out mommy body.
It has taken some time to resolve some issues, including dealing with my own hurts, and dealing with his denial of ever looking. However heres a few conclusions I have come up with:
*the "perfect woman" that is portrayed in these magazines and media are as likely to be searching for accaptance and approval as the real world woman, however they are using their god given beautiful bodies and talents the wrong way.
*while it's painfull to know that a husband may be looking, the reality comes down to HIS CHOICE WAS TO MARRY YOU BECAUSE HE LOVES YOU AND WANTS A LIFE AND FAMILY WITH YOU.
* The worlds view of the "perfect woman" is far from God's view. Read about the proverbs 31 woman. Her heart is after pleasing God, she's faithful to her husband and family. These are attributes that those models and actresses (or event he woman walking through the store letting everything show) are not living in their lives ( how can you be faithful to your husband if you are showing the world your goods?)
*While it's frustrating dealing with a new mommy body and the changes it brings, it has been helpful to me to realize the God designed a womans body to do such things. Everything your body has been through in pregnancy and post pregnancy was designed by a loving Father who loves you regardless of how it looks right now.
Remember the Bible says that you are FEARFULLY AND WONDERFULLY MADE. Keeping that in mind I have come to realize that as I get older and my body undergoes many more changes, theres still going to be "perfect women" out there, but the godly charateristics that are in our lives are more beautiful than any perfect 10 body will ever be. I've realized that before I can see changes in my husband appreciating my physical apperance, I must first appreciate it and care for it.
Newmom.....and others reading I pray these things I've shared help you. I wonder if anyone has any other suggestions? Do any of the male readers have any insight to this? |
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makel
Posts:4
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| 05/20/2010 9:34 PM |
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Hi, I just thought I would pass on something that I have found particularly helpful. I recently read an e-book called 'The illusion of beauty: Why women hate themselves and envy other women'. I cannot remember the author (sorry) but you can google it. From my previous posts you've probably gathered that after reading Ch. 6 I was in a bad way for some time. This e-book has really helped me in feeling better about myself and not caring much about this visual roladex business anymore. I highly recommend it to women struggling with the info in chapter 6 of FWO. I feel that the e-book healed the damage done after reading FWO and I am finally on the right track, back where I was before. There really needed to be something similar in FWO if it is written to strengthen marriages because it would save a lot of women experiencing terrible heartache.
I wish you all the best, God bless. Makel. |
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Ruby
Posts:5
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| 08/30/2010 4:12 AM |
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I know this has been mentioned more than once before, but I'd like to add my voice to it and expand on the subject:
There seems to be a HUGE misuse of the word "normal" in the context we're discussing here. Let's take a look at some of the definitions of "normal":
- In behavior, normal refers to a lack of significant deviation from the average. The phrase "not normal" is often applied in a negative sense (asserting that someone or some situation is improper, sick, etc.) Abnormality varies greatly in how pleasant or unpleasant this is for other people.
- being approximately average or within certain limits in e.g.
intelligence and development; "a perfectly normal child"; "of norm
al
intelligence"; "the most normal person I've ever met"
- convention: something regarded as a normative example; "the convention
of not naming the main character"; "violence is the rule not the
exception"; "his formula for impressing visitors"
- conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or
social norm; not abnormal; "serve wine at normal room temperature";
"normal diplomatic relations"; "normal working hours"; "normal word
order"; "normal curiosity"; "the normal course of events" So, essentially, the word "normal" makes reference to anything that outnumbers minorities. It's nothing more than a way to describe something that is observed as more common than not. In Psychology, people who are considered "normal" are simply a reflection of how the majority of people behave. In other words, if more people had split personalities than not, this wouldn't be considered a disorder, we would all be creating different personas for ourselves all the time, who each would act and react in different (if not opposite) ways, and this would be considered normal. There are many examples out there of things that are considered normal in some cultures, which are completely unacceptable in others. In those cultures, the majority of people behave a certain way, so that behavior is normal. When you look at another culture and the majority of people don't behave that way, then that behavior isn't normal. And I'm not talking about whether or not it's normal for men to lust and look at attractive women in other cultures. Simply defining the word "normal" in general terms.
So, "normal" is a perspective. And a way to reference majorities.
Now, let's look at the definitions of right in the sense that I'd like to discuss here:
- correct: free from error; especially conforming to fact or truth; "the correct answer"; "the correct version"; "the right answer"; "took the right road"; "the right decision"
- in conformance with justice or law or morality; "do the right thing and confess"
- correct in opinion or judgment; "time proved him right"
- proper: appropriate for a condition or purpose or occasion or a person's character, needs; "everything in its proper place"; "the right man for the job"; "she is not suitable for the position"
I'd like to highlight this one: "in conformance with justice or law or morality". Anything that isn't in conformance with justice or morality is the opposite of right - in this case, unjust, unfair or immoral.
This is also a perspective, because what is considered moral and fair can vary greatly. But as human beings, we tend to agree that harming another human being in any way isn't right. It is because of our ability as human beings to put ourselves in another human being's (and any living being's shoes for that matter) shoes and somehow relate to potential physical or emotional pain that we can agree in large scales that harming another person is wrong. And I'm not even bringing God's words to the table here, because that too is a perspective that people can agree or disagree upon. On a very basic human level, whether you are a religious person or not, you can either relate to or imagine and project onto another uman being what it feels like to be hurt.
Men everywhere have either chosen or been conditioned equate normal with right. "It's just a guy's thing" is simply a reference to a behavior observed in significant large numbers. But this says NOTHING about that behavior being right.
If as a human being you can agree that harming another human being is wrong, than calling this behavior as normal and assuming this makes it right is a cop out. Granted, most men don't realize the intensity of this harm until educated on it, but at some level most men are aware that this causes some level of hurt to their wives, or they wouldn't have come up with the explanation "it's just a man's thing" to begin with. That alone should be enough for them (you guys) to reevaluate your choices. But let's overlook that for a second and think about the husbands married to women in this forum (and elsewhere) who are now aware of the intensity of harm and still choose to regard their behavior as "normal" as if this could excuse the harm they are inflicting.
The moment you make that choice, guys, you lose the right to call yourselves "normal". Because it is also considered abnormal to have no regard for another human being's pain - never mind your wife's.
I am an intelligent, well educated (AND attractive, let me assure you) woman, but NO MATTER HOW I SPIN THIS, I will never come to terms with this behavior. Because it all boils down to a notion of disrespect, to a notion of complacency and disregard for another human being's feelings - and I will also point out that if you want to take pride in your great accomplishments and expect us, women, to respect you for them, then you might want to start looking at this as a challenge to overcome and take responsibility for the choices you CAN make concerning this - for moral, human, and fairness reasons, not to mention religious reasons if that applies to you. Otherwise, all you're really proving is weakness of character and intent, inability to relate to human pain, unwillingness to change your perspective - and then you also lose your right to expect respect. Make no mistake: every man out there refusing to make this choice is gradually (or not so gradually at all) losing a part of their wives respect.
It makes me cringe when I read things written by men, either blatantly saying or implying "it's just how things are, just face the truth, deal with it and move on". Let's turn this around on you for a second: face the truth: you are hurting and inflicting harm into your wife. This is a fact just as much as you consider your nature to be. If you want us to face the facts, then you need to be willing to do the same. And if you do and still choose to keep harming your wife emotionally, then don't be surprised if you wake up one morning and realize that all you have left are the women you're lusting after, because your wife has lost her trust in you as a man, as a partner, and has also lost respect for you as a man. If you are not willing to take responsibility for this and step up to the plate and face this challenge as something to be proud of, then I'm sorry but you might not be worthy of the woman you have by your side.
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Ruby
Posts:5
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| 08/30/2010 4:52 AM |
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By the way, I was deeply moved by Dave's story. I don't personally know this couple and it looks like they have been through their fair share of struggles, but let me back up my previous post with a personal acknowledgment: I respect you, Dave. In your wife's shoes, I would have found it particularly challenging to be your partner, but I find it a true source of inspiration to see a man who has 1) acknowledged the problem, 2) proactively searched for solutions, 3) loved his wife beyond his perceived limitations and 4) overcome these limitations. This is true power. This says more about you as a man, from a woman's perspective, than other types of accomplishments men tend to put their efforts into.
After reading your story, now even more than before, I certainly don't want to hear it can't be done. Men might choose not to do it, or hide behind statistics, conformity and conventions and stay in their comfort zone, but that isn't what strong men are made of, I don't care what the challenge is. Thank you for sharing your inspiring story, it brings a breath of hope to women everywhere and, hopefully, also inspires other men to be as brave as you are. |
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Ruby
Posts:5
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| 08/30/2010 5:46 AM |
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Still in an attempt to give guys some perspective on this, I'd like to enlighten you on what the information on Chapter 6 has done to us, women. Maybe you can't relate to this or understand it, but it has basically destroyed the very foundation of our ability to relate to you in a way that makes sense to us. What you need to understand is that this isn't an isolated issue, it affects our whole perception of you, our whole perception of being married to you and, on a larger scale, even, our whole perception of being married, period or even relating to men at all. If you have read FMO, take the chapter that talks about the hammer breaking the mirror of you VERY SERIOUSLY - and take it a step further. Whatever we do to come to terms with this somehow, it will be a COPING mechanism, not true acceptance. Some of us domed with this knowledge will distance ourselves emotionally from you, others will lose respect for you while learning to empower ourselves in directions that don't necessarily include you, others will cope by using this fact to their advantage the best way they know how, by adding to the problem and getting the attention they need from men other than you, others will find themselves trapped in a feeling of anger and depression - but no matter what, they will all be nothing but coping mechanisms.
What is alarming to me is that I've used the words "doomed" and "knowledge in the same sentence. I'm the type of person who prides herself for dealing VERY well with facts (usually even the ones I don't like to hear) and I've never believed that ignorance is bliss. I've always believed that knowledge is power. S for me to write "doomed with this knowledge", let me tell you, it's the first time in my life I wish I didn't have the information.
But after deeply struggling with this for over a week now and being aware that I can't "un-know" what I know, I've come to realize that I have basically 2 choices: to cope in a way that weakens me or cope in a way that empowers me. And I will choose the latter. I haven't figured out the best way to do that yet, but I won't rest until I find this answer. I refuse to be crippled by the weakness of the opposite gender. I want to encourage other women out there also struggling with this to consider this perspective and I'm open to brainstorming on ideas. |
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makel
Posts:4
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| 09/06/2010 1:32 AM |
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Ruby,
Very well written. I totally agree with your point that to accept the visual temptation as normal means it is necessary also to accept the female reaction to that as normal also. So if women are expected to 'accept and move on', men need to acknowledge that a natural response from a woman may in fact be the shattering of her affection for him. I believe no woman should be made to feel as though they have failed if they haven't moved past this information. The reality is that love and intimacy are affected by how we perceive how our partner views us. I can accept that I am not as special to my husband as I thought I was but that acceptance comes with a price - I am not going to feel the same way about our relationship as I had previously. I guess the spark goes a little.
I wrote in a previous post that an e-book helped me. It didn't take me back to the place I was at in terms of my feelings toward my husband before I read FWO but it did help me feel better about myself - like the fault doesn't actually lie in me, it is not because I am defective or ugly or whatever. I found that really helpful. I guess this is pretty close to coping in a way that empowers rather than weakens.
I am still hoping to find some way of feeling close to my husband again though. I hate feeling like any compliments he gives me are empty and worthless. I really grieve for what we had before FWO even if it was just an illusion. If you do think of anything please post it on here as it would no doubt help a few ladies. Blessings. |
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asher
Posts:1
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| 09/08/2010 9:07 AM |
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I thought that by improving on my physical appearance and being dressed up for when my husband returned from work that it would make him more attracted to me. However, he did not seem to notice any of this. Our relationship seem to lack passion and sometimes we could go for over a week before he would touch me romantically. It got to a point that I actually had to be asking for sex (which I didn't feel comfortable doing). I eventually had to bear my mind out about the way I felt and that I wanted him to want me because he did and not because I had asked. It's been a week since then and he still hasn't 'approached' me even when there was a long weekend when he didn't have to go into work. I have sort of made up my mind not to ask him for sex anymore. I feel so hurt. We've been married for over three years. What can I do? I feel so unloved and scorned. I don't know what to do????
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